Devika is a Product Manager at Google, currently in Sydney and working on the Google Chromebook. The podcast is super fun, but to those who don’t want to listen in on our annoying voices, here is the transcript:
Devika: I work at Google, I work on Chrome OS, which is an operating system for large devices like laptops and tablets. I work on the software for Chrome OS, making sure that you get a simple, nice, awesome experience when you work on your laptop. I work closely with the hardware team.
On working closely with hardware
Pranav: Let’s talk about the hardware and software interface - how much do you need to understand hardware, and how much do you have to know about hardware technologies?
Devika: Having a basic understanding of how hardware works helps. I’m not a hardware PM, but I’m sure even hardware PMs don’t go very deep into the tech stack - I don’t think you need to know stuff like threading and semaphores to be able to be a PM on Chrome OS. You do need to know upcoming technology, what is the strategy your competitors are going for, deciding if to build opensource v/s proprietary code, etc. We build open source on Chrome OS. It’s more of a passion thing. I know product managers who go super deep into the tech, and some who don’t.
On having a tech degree as a PM
Pranav: You’ve mentioned that understanding hardware is important. I get asked very frequently if my Computer Science degree helps. For me, not at all. I feel my economics degree helps me a lot more. What are your thoughts?
Devika: I don’t feel like my economics degree helps me a lot either - maybe a little bit of microeconomics. I feel those functions, like inputs, having a framework, creating prioritizations, etc that I learnt in my degree help. I believe that what I learnt from my CS degree is the ability to keep learning new technology stacks. When I joined housing, I was doing web technology and PWAs, which was the cool sexy thing at that time. Android was just becoming popular, and then suddenly, BAM Machine Learning - so if now you knew this new thing you were sought after.
My role at Flipkart was with search, I focused on intent understanding. This was again a steep learning curve for me. So just as engineers, keep updated with what’s happening, and you apply your principles of logic and problem solving, keep following up on the next new stuff. So having that engineer’s mindset helps.
If you have a good sense of engineering, you will be better at estimations as well. You won’t have to rely on your team to check the feasibility of everything, and this will make meetings and estimations better and faster, you will be able to unblock and resolve dependencies more efficiently.
On not having an MBA
Pranav: Very few PMs in India and the US come from non-b school backgrounds. So you feel this puts you at a disadvantage?
Devika: I get this question a LOT, and I ask myself this question a lot. I haven’t written off an MBA just yet. I do have a masters’ degree, but not an MBA. I have some great mentors, and I asked them if I should get an MBA. The response was that the rate of your growth right now, and the amount of product you’re learning right now, might not be matched by an MBA. I’m reading and learning a lot of the generalist b-school stuff on the side, and focusing on my product craft learning on the job.
Arindam advised me to do a b-school visit, and I went to Stanford, Harvard, etc and attended some classes. I found the classes quite appealing, met some smart folk, but decided at the time that it might not be worth the 2 years that I can otherwise spend growing my career.
Pranav: This is a difference I find in Europe. B-schools are not that big here, most PMs don’t have an MBA, or a Computer Science degree. And Europe has some great Product Managers as well, most without an MBA or Computer Science degree - so data wise, I don’t think either of the two are essential.
On transitioning to a product career
Pranav: We got into product management straight out of grad school, but that doesn’t seem to be happening any more. How do people get into product management these days?
Devika: It’s really difficult. Not many schools teach you PM, but CMU offers a specialisation. A lot of folks move through Business Analytics functions, which is the beginning of PM - one of the things you need to do as a PM is look at data and do your research, which is an overlap with a BA function. Software Engineers can get into PM roles, but that’s more from understanding product and being home grown in the organisation.
A bad product hire can kill team motivation. For me, when my product is not working well I can’t sleep at night. So having the kind of love for your product drives the team. Switching internally within a team can be easy because you can get mentored by your Product Manager and spend 10-20% of your time on product tasks.
Startups are more inclined to hire PMs from non product backgrounds, but then you may not find mentors and will have to grow into your job.
Pranav: It’s a lot more difficult to become a PM now also because there are so many PMs looking to move and already available. As a hiring manager, you always have an experienced alternative to someone starting in Product. Also the earlier you are in your career, the more at a disadvantage you are as a would be PM.
On APM programs
Devika: That’s why we have APM programs. Suraj, my manager at FK, explained it like this: Why would wait for an undergrad to finish their degree, then get experience, then do an MBA, then hire them for a PM job? With the APM program we can short circuit this process and groom them to be PMs straight out of grad school.
Pranav: APM programs are also great because you have a lot more time at hand that early in your career. I remember we used to work 14-15 hours a day back then. We did that for 2 years and came out much better PMs.
On Product
Pranav: What’s fun about product for you?
Devika: Generally the challenge of it. If your problem space is challenging, I like how you can think of different exciting and innovative solutions. I’m never bored. ChromeOS had a phenomenal year last year, and we went through some hiccups too. Last week when we made a plan for 2021, I was thinking, I’ll be able to do all this in 2021, and I want to do more! Every time you feel like you have a plan, there is still so much to do! Every time I read feedback on my product on reddit or Twitter, it motivates me more.
That’s what I love about product - you own it, you can always find new problems and new challenges, you’re never bored. It’s like being in a relationship with a crazy person.
On working at Google
Pranav: What’s the vibe at Google like?
Devika: Somewhere in my contract I’ve signed a non-disclosure :P. Google is an extremely fun place to work at. It’s very efficient. I love some things I’ve tried to learn on the way. One of them is the stress on simplifying stuff. Really distilling the content and the message, and then presenting the solution as a coherent story - talk about what matters!
When I’m writing anything, I ask myself, what are you trying to say? Is one sentence enough? I’ve learnt soft skills, how to be concise and simple. Any deck I read at Google, it could be anything under the sun, and if I have no context of that technology or product, then if I read the deck start to end I still understand everything. This is very powerful.
Generally, the culture and how much folks respect each other. You can always disagree with someone agreeable, and that’s really important. Everyone’s good intentioned and smart - trust those things and you will understand why they say what they say - so extending empathy to your colleagues, like you do to your users.
Pranav - also, the food is brilliant! When I went to the office at Google, best lunch ever!
If you enjoyed this podcast, consider subscribing to stay updated on future ones!
Devika Lal, Product @Google in a Generally fun podcast.